Sea Breeze

Joined

• started 276 topics
• posted 3,526 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Sea Breeze

• 
  28

  Rainbow 🌈 Law Makers will turn on Religion NOT the UN

  by JohnTron7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it should be starting to become more clear to people what i've stated for years on this site.

  the threat against religion that becomes pivotal will come from lgbtq politicians forcing through " hate crime" bills aimed at religions.

  in the past i have had a " maybe" statement from only one commenter.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukgt1PojBaY&ab_channel=TheWokeWhisperer

  Rainbow 🌈 Law Makers will turn on Religion NOT the UN

  This is what happens when morality is seen as an artifact of utility rather than God.
• 
  168

  Moral responsibility.

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

  please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

  a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  Do we really have intrinsic value in a universe created by god? God does not need us.

  @ TonusOh
  
  Yes, I believe human value is rooted in the Character of God whose primary attriburte is love, who does not need us, as you state; as if some utility would be missing without us. But, he does desire a relationship with us, because relationship is a requirement of love, his chief attribute. And, we should be extremely grateful that this view helped shape much of western freedom. There is MUCH at stake here in considering the intrinsic value offered by Christians and instrumental value offered by atheists.
  
  Consider:
  
  

  Intrinsic Value

  If humans are intrinsically valuable, then there are a set of objective (and even absolute) duties that cannot be violated. This view holds that humans possess objective value regardless of their situation, condition, social or economic status, skin color, sex, location, beliefs, or any host of other characteristics that people try to judge others’ value. This allows for objective condemnation and consequences of particular choices and behaviors, which many people do not appreciate, especially if they are accused of committing the atrocities. This view also makes even government and governmental officials responsible to the greater reality of this moral law, which justifies political reform - something that certain rulers and politicians do not appreciate.

  Instrumental Value

  On the other hand, if humans are merely instrumentally valuable, then treatment of them (regardless of the particular treatment- including murder, rape, torture, or any host of traditionally unthinkable treatments) can only be judged based on their utility towards a particular goal. This view permits the affirmation of the “goodness” of even the most egregious behaviors if a “greater” goal is in view. This view allows for anyone to be able to justify any behavior if they can make their goal sound good or acceptable. There is no objective standard by which to judge the morality of a behavior, only to judge its utility. There is also no objective standard by which to judge a particular goal. Since the goal is subjective, so is the behavior, and no moral judgment is actually permitted. This ultimately reduces to “might makes right:” whoever holds the power to punish holds the power to dictate what is “right” and what is “wrong.” Political reform has no justification other than a differing opinion of someone who may be able to challenge the power of those currently in power. If one holds to this view, they often confuse legality with morality.

  The Christian worldview traditionally has held that humans possess intrinsic value by virtue of being created in the Image of God. If this is true, then the first set of implications described above are features of reality that all humans are subject to. Any worldview that cannot justify intrinsic human value is left with the second set of implications described. And, by necessary logical implication, if one wishes to appeal to intrinsic human value, they must justify that appeal by grounding intrinsic human value outside the human race.

  Origins of The Image of God

  If humans have intrinsic value, it had to come from somewhere (or Someone) outside of the human race. Otherwise, the value that is ascribed to humans is merely subjective and instrumental. As I have described in a previous post (Why Is The Image of God So Important), this discussion is tied to one’s view of human origins. If someone wishes to appeal to intrinsic human value, they must accept some type of connection between humans and an eternally existing, absolute reality that is outside of (and is not) this universe. The only thing that fits this description is the Creator God of the Bible.

  In order to argue for the intrinsic value of humans, Dr. Fazale Rana offers several lines of evidence for the sudden appearance of the Image of God in life’s history (which happens to coincide with the sudden appearance of humans on the scene). He calls this sudden appearance a “cultural big bang”:
• 
  168

  Moral responsibility.

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

  please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

  a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  just put out your arm and scoop up the child.
  But you don't. You watch as the little boy falls onto the tracks and is pulverised by 185 tonnes of metal.
  My question. What responsibility do you bear for the child's death?

  @Niclaou,

  A lot. Christians can logically answer this question because of their belief that we are made in the image of a loving God and have intrinsic value. We are obligated to love others because "God first loved us". That worldview provides a rational explanation for the morality that I can clearly observe within myself. It is a consitent worldview... it makes sense.

  But atheists claim that we are products of explosions from nothing, star supernovas, chemical accidents and DNA copying mistakes.

  I am not denying that most atheists have some morality, of course they do. They are made in the image of God same as Christians. What I am asking atheists to do is to provide a consistent explanation for the presence of this morality.
  
  Why don't atheists act consistently with the worldview they claim is true? In other words, why should one chemical accident care what another chemical accident does?

  
  

  How many people would even bother to post on this thread if it was about a beaker of chemicals instead of a child that got run over by a train?

  In our heart of hearts, we all know the Christian God.
• 
  8

  Justification

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the..."other sheep...are...not even justified".

  - wt 1938 pg.

  jw's are internationally famous for rejecting the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" (mt.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  Thanks for the link. Looks lengthy. But, I will read all of it.
• 
  49

  a pet peeve of mine

  by enoughisenough in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  putting this under "friends" because i couldn't figure out where to put it.

  it is very often on here and in ex jw videos, ect that people like to undermine some of those who once we would have called friends.

  there seems to be a view that window washers, plumbers, cleaners, construction workers are somehow less intelligent than those who may be college educated.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  I went to university, just for the heck of it. I was already running a multimillion dollar company.

  I continued to run it out of a nearly on-campus office with my secretary driving one hour each way to accommodate my craziness.

  But, I checked out of the WT in Nov. 95 with the generation doctrine change and this seemed at the time like a reasonable thing to do, especially since I was single.

  I threw a party once with other students who were 10 years younger and a few professors who were 10 years or so older.

  During the party the dept. chair phd pulled me aside and asked me what the hell was I doing pursuing a college education since I was already making a good living.

  It really made me realize that some highly educated people were just as lost as I was.

  Later in the party, (after a few adult beverages), I almost had the dept. chair convinced that my dog could actually add and subtract. She found the barking show entertaining at first. But after she could not detect my cue (to stop barking at the correct number) she got more than a little put off.

  But, I digress.

  Point: Even highly educated people can be fooled by a barking dog.
• 
  168

  Moral responsibility.

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

  please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

  a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  If you are an atheist, what does it matter what one chemical accident does or does not do to another chemical accident?

  One bubbles, one fizzes, one explodes… chemicals do what chemicals do right?
• 
  42

  God and Unicorns

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  atheist scientists now agree that "elasmotherium sibiricu" lived with humans.

  all they had to do was read their bible to know that.

  job 39:9 “will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  I think that suggesting dinosaur soft tissue, blood vessels & proteins encased in pourous limestone could last 80 million years is absurd. That is longer than it would take for the Rocky Mountains to erode down to sea level. But, if you keep a straight face you can make absurdity almost plausible. We all used to go to doors to try and talk people into ritually rejecting the free gift of Justification.... all with a straight face of course.

  Richard Dawkins has the schtick down :

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6H9XirkhZY&t=36s&ab_channel=BobEnyart
  
• 
  42

  God and Unicorns

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  atheist scientists now agree that "elasmotherium sibiricu" lived with humans.

  all they had to do was read their bible to know that.

  job 39:9 “will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  No, actual biological cells, blood and DNA have not been recovered, that is a lie perpetuated by unscrupulous creationist authors selling books

  @ PeacefulPete - Might as well add 60 Minutes to your list of "liars".

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-K7_H27Wq4&t=164s&ab_channel=BobEnyart
  

  This stuff is everywhere regardless of the state of preservation. In one study at the British Museum of Natural History, 8 dinosaur bones were randomly selected from thousands available. 6 of the 8 dinosaur samples produced original biological material.

  Tons more information and links to dinosaur discoveries here.

  Scientific American ran this article a few years ago:

  Dinosaur Blood and Bone Cells Seem to Survive Fossilization
• 
  196

  would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?

  by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a good question is would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?.

  were you more happy pimi?

  are all the pimis more happy than the the pimos or the pomos?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  cofty may be an example of what we are talking about here. Maybe not as happy and content but feeling very aggressive in keeping their beliefs that they are so sure they have found the truth?

  People do not like to give up long held beliefs. When we all used to go to the doors, we were so sure that we had the truth. We were agressive, dismissive, and arrogantly impressed that our "good works" of going door to door set us apart from others, especially the most prominent part of the whore of Babylon - Christians who accepted the free gift of salvation like children.
  
  Then we found out that Jesus is not our mediator, we found out that we were not justified. We found out that without being justified we cannot escape the wrath of God . In a nutshell, our beliefs were not consistent with scripture.

  The..."other sheep...are...not even justified". - WT 1938 pg. 104-105

  Romans 5: 1 states that we have peace with God by being justified (declared righteous) by our faith.

  Romans 5: 9 states : "being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

  Some people are willing to live with an inconsistent wordview, others are not. An inconsistent worldview is something I could never go back to. It is a huge red flag that something is wrong and requires more attention.

  
  
• 
  42

  God and Unicorns

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  atheist scientists now agree that "elasmotherium sibiricu" lived with humans.

  all they had to do was read their bible to know that.

  job 39:9 “will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  @ LoveUniHateExams,

  For example, scientists state that gravity exists. <---- you take their word for it, don't you?

  Gravity is not an untestable conclusion, but a demonstratable fact. We all have the same facts but draw sometimes completely different conclusions based on our worldview.
  
  For instance, when dinosaur soft tissues, blood cells and DNA fragments were discovered to be quite common, "millions of years" proponents believed that there must be some unseen agent causing them to be preserved longer than it takes mountain ranges to wear down from erosion and rise up again.
  
  Others with a different worldview believe this "saving device" is absurd and that the facts support a young earth in line with a literal biblical interpretation.

  Same facts.... different conclusions. It's the way it is.